Fabrication

Welder

Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 09:45:35 -0700

From: "Roger Brown, P.E." <rogerb@pisco.engr.sgi.com>

Subject: Re: portable welder?

> The configuration they're showing it in is a Flux-Core set-up. Basically

> this is a sheetmetal strip rolled into a tube with flux in the center.

> Welds look like a stick arc weld complete with slag to chip off. This is

> because what you have IS a DC stick arc welder with a very, very long

> electrode. Means you don't have to carry the shield gas bottle though.

Heck, might as well carry a couple of jumper cables and a few sticks of 601x

rod. That's what I do now, that and 2-3 batteries in series makes a nice

welder and the cost is way less than this one. I've recently been doing a lot

of the welding on my truck with just this setup.

- --

Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 15:58:48 -0400

From: "Lance Williams" <lwilliams@cov.com>

Subject: re: Portable Welder

Thom, I carry 7014's. As you know, they are an all-position rod and are also easy to strike an arc with. I normally use 6012's at home. (5/32" I think) There is a lot to say about the quality of a rod, it really makes a difference. My brand of choice is Thyssen. They cost more but they are well worth it, try them once and you'll see what I mean.

Another trick for trail repairs if you happen to be using the "two batteries and a jumper cable" technique is to use a smaller diameter rod - they require less juice. Just take care that you are getting adequate penetration, something you would do no matter what rod you use.

I use both a mig and an arc welder at my shop. I normally run the mig with flux-core wire unless I'm doing something that has to look pretty. It penetrates very well and the welds are good, except there is significant spatter as compared to using shielding gas. I think the ready weld or a similar unit would provide sufficient quality welds. Some people on the LCML have used this type of welder and report that they are very easy to use and make high quality welds.

One problem I do have when using a mig for repairs is that the "gun" simply does not fit into every place you want to weld. With a stick welder you can use a short rod and squeeze the stinger into places you couldn't even think of getting a mig - especially a top loader like the ready-weld. An example on the mini might be the rear spring hangers or that area of the frame.

Lance Williams

77 FJ 55 The Rock Lobster

Alexandria, VA

Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 09:54:40 -0700

From: "Roger Brown, P.E." <rogerb@pisco.engr.sgi.com>

Subject: Re: portable welder?

Thom wrote:

> Most of the pics I've seen have the batteries sitting completely out of

> the vehicle. Of course in most of them, they're using jumper cables as

> leads. I'd want one of those marine manual battery switches to

> completely seperate the batteries from the alt's diodes. I have a

> feeling they may not like the voltage surges. Somebody recently posted

> that they'd tried 2, then 3 batteries in series and found that 2

> batteries was more than enough. 3 batteries was too hard to control.

> This was using the jumper cable set-up. Be interesting to see how well

> the amperage controller works with 3 vs. 2.

I find two batteries is harder to work with, much less penetration and hard to

keep the arc going. I use 3 in series (36V) and then use a thinner rod to

control the current (3/32" for welding on the frame). I welded some 3/8"

stock for my shackles with 1/8" 7018. When I designed my dual battery setup,

I added a set of connectors to allow the two batteries to be totally isolated

from the vehicle (both +12V and ground) and I can plug my jumper cables into

those two connectors for the series connection.

- --

Roger Brown

Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 10:10:42 -0700

From: "Roger Brown, P.E." <rogerb@pisco.engr.sgi.com>

Subject: Re: portable welder

Thom wrote:

> While I agree with Jay, Flux-Core does have a big advantage in storage.

> It's a lot harder to keep arc rod dry than it is to keep flux-core dry.

> I know what the books say the arc rod of choice should be, but I'm

> curious as to what rod people who are set up for stick welding actually

> carry. Input, anyone ?

I carry the following:

6011, 6013 in 3/32" (good for vertical and overhead and dirty metal) and 7018

(higher strength and for high-alloy steel) in 3/32 and 1/8" diameters. Keep

the rods in a sealed plastic box.

- --

Roger Brown

Welding Nerf Bars

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:53:41 -0600

From: Jack Alford

Subject: nerf bars/welding

To: toy4x4@tlca.org

>I talked about this with my friend who welds for a living (hoping he'd

>offer to weld mine when I finally get them)(he did), he said there's no

>problem as long as you only weld in the direction of the frame (front to

>back, not across). If you go across you weaken the frame and give it a

>better chance of bending at that weld. Just remember, it's a lot like

>working with wood, "go with the grain."

Not to doubt your friend but if this is truely the case I shouldn't even

get my truck out of the garage nor should most any other hard core wheeler

who's made alot of mods to their trucks frame. I've welded up it, down it,

across it, back across it, back down it, I've welded spring hangers, shock

mounts, spring mounts, cut 1-5/16" holes through BOTH frame rails welded spring

hanger tubes in, welded on mounts for several diff. power steering boxes,

I've even welded on my axle housings front and rear:

4-wheeled the Rubicon once, Tellico three times, and numerous tough

trips close by and not even the first sign of a crack in anything that's

been welded. I'm no professional welder but have read several books

and don't fear anything falling off my truck nor my frame cracking.

The thing to remember is that possibly you are weakening the frame a bit

in the point where you weld it BUT there's a reason why you're welding

at that point, to afix some other piece of metal to that spot which

will by the same token give back strength.

I wouldn't be so concerned with what others who haven't welded on Toyota

truck frames have to say, Toyota frames are thick and tough, (at least until

1995 they were ...). I use my truck harder than two average people would, I

wouldn't fear welding a set of nerfs on at all. In fact I'm about to make a

custom set myself ... and even weld them on heaven forbid.

Brief Welding Class:

An average welding rod, say a 7014 (my personal favorite rod for welding

on my Toyota frame) it has a tensile strength of 70,000 psi, is an

all position rod (horizontal, vertical, etc.) and works with DC Either

Polarity or AC, Iron Powder Flux.

While the Toyota 4x4 truck/4Runner frames up until 1995 at least had a

tensile strength of 36,000 psi. The weld metal put in place by burning the

welding rod is going to be almost twice as strong as the frame was. If

you've ever seen

a sorry welders weld brake, it wasn't the weld that broke (welding rods

are strong as shown in my example above) but the metal around the weld

because the welder did not get good enough penetration to make the piece

they were welding on and the piece they were welding to become one.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Jack Alford Off-Road.com - The best dirt on the net!

jalford@off-road.com http://www.off-road.com/

Decatur, AL

'86 Xcab Toyota Pickup - 33x12.50 BFG MT

Solid Front Axle - Marlin Crawler - ARB's - 4.88's

SFWDA - TLCA #3415 - Rocket City Rock Crawlers

Roll Cage

Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 17:42:38 -0700

From: "Thom Singer" <ntsqd@mail.csuchico.edu>

Subject: Re: roll cages

Try the Coast Fabrication catalog. They have most of the specs you're

likely to need listed in the catalog.

cfab@ix.netcom.com

Or 714.842.2603

They also carry the coveted AN and MS spec fasteners along all kinds of

other goodies.

Welding in LA

Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2000 02:18:57 -0800

From: "Shawn H. Ooi" <moomba@worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: Welding/Fabrication help in Los Angeles vacinity

Call Jayson at FastToys Fabrications in Burbank, CA and tell him that

Shawn with the white 4Rnr (and/ or Mike Hazard's friend Shawn) sent you.

He'll take care of you. He does really good work. His # is (818) 842

8634. Let me know how it goes...

Shawn H. Ooi http://members.tripod.com/moomba4rnr/index.html

1991 4Rnr SR5 2" Eibach lift 2" b/l TJM T17 33" Dueler M/Ts

1985 4Rnr SR5 Skyjacker 5" 35" BFG MTs Warn M8000

------------------------------------------

Bomber wrote:

...Does anyone know of a good "fab" shop in the area that can do the

work...

Bobbed Truck

Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 14:40:51 -0600

From: "Lance Morin" <lance.morin@netzero.com>

Subject: Bobbed 1985 4RNR update

Phil,Todd and fellow 4-Runner owners (or others who care),

I finished bobbing and most of the welding of the 4-Runner this past

weekend. I have some video tape that I will convert to still images tonight.

Basically, I made the first cut right behind the light assemblies and before

that last body mount (that 4x5 or whatever it is rectangle on back side of

the bed). Of course, I pulled the tailgate off first. My next cut was

exactly 12" forward of the first cut and ended up just behind the bed

crossmember that the factory roll bar attached to. This cut also leaves the

factory inside sheet metal rail that helps support the shape of the bed.

Taking out 12 inches of body behind the rear fenders causes two main

problems. The first problem is the rear body mount. I solved this by

fabricating body mounts from 2" pipe and welding directly on top of the

frame. These are basically metal body lift style pucks with factory rubber

mounts on top. I simple drilled a hold in the bed and ran a bolt with

washers into these mounts. The body mounts have nuts welding inside of them

to allow me to use a lock washer with the bolt from the bed. I have some

pictures of this and will make a crude image in Illustrator later today

(slow day at the office). For the record, I already have a 3" body lift, so

there is plenty of room to work under there.

The second problem with removing 12" from the truck is fitting the factory

tailgate back on. I cut my frame right at the end of the factory shackle

hangers. In fact, we cut off 1/4" of the hanger itself to avoid trying to

saw through the hardened factory welds. I then made a diagonal cut in my

frame about 1-1/2" back from the top edge and down 1/2 of the frame height.

This allows me to now get the factory tailgate back on the truck and leaves

some room for welding some flat stock in that opening to beef up the frame.

I felt I needed the flat stock end caps since I removed some of the support

of the open box frame. I haven't added the flat bar caps yet, but I will

next weekend. I can now hang my tailgate, but it won't open all the way. Ken

wanted me to weld the tailgate solid, but I'm not keen on that idea. I don't

mind it not opening all the way down since I can still get parts from the

window or through the back seat (which I've determined will stay). I was

determined to cut out as much body out as I could. I knew I'd have to fab

something for rear mounts, but I didn't think I'd have tailgate problems.

What's new though, I never think things all the way through.

This week (probably Wednesday), I'll be cutting the hard top and we'll do

the fiberglass work sometime this weekend.

The top will get cut right behind the leading edge of the first sliding

window (towards the front). This is only about 2-1/2 back from the front.

The next cut will be 12 inches back of that. Before doing the fiberglass

work, I'll remove the first sliding glass window on each side and have one

of my glass vendors shorten them a few inches. This way, I'll still be able

to lock in the windows and open them to allow a some air in. I don't know

how often that will happen, but I want the option. (since the wife in a big

fan or real air conditioning)

I anybody has questions or even suggestions, feel free to email me. My next

project will by the rock bars (simple, done that a few times now) and a

rear bumper. Both will be fabricated from 4" x 2" x 3/16" wall rectangular

tubing. Both will also serve as supports for part of my external roll cage.

After the bumper bars are done, I'll be doing a homebrewed cross over

steering swap using a '89 IFS Toyota Truck steering box. A buddy of mine

(Ken Bradley) just finished his this weekend and it's pretty stout. I'll be

doing mine very similar to his, but we'll see how that turns out. He had a

local 4x4 engineering guru fabricate his custom pitman. The same guy is also

fabricating him a "spare set" of arms that attach to the knuckles and

another pitman to boot. This kit a similar to a hi-steer kit as it all works

above the springs. It can be done for as little as $70 if you have a spare

front end sitting around you place. I'll take some video of my swap when I

get to it.

Lance Morin

lance@fwd-fwd.org

Check out the Toyota Treads 4x4 Classic March 18-19, 2000 (Clayton,

Oklahoma)

www.fwd-fwd.org/lance/toyrun.html

I'll be driving up on the morning of the 17th for those of you who have

never been to Clayton.

- ----- Original Message -----

From: phil linker <granite_luv@yahoo.com>

To: lance morin <lance@fwd-fwd.org>

Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 12:00 PM

Subject: bobbed 4RNR

> Hey Lance,

> Great timing on the 4RNR bob. I have been looking at

> this project for the last couple of years, just

> couldn't figure out what to do with the rear body

> mounts. I just talked to Jon at All-Pro, and his

> solution was to cut the runner bed just behind the

> body mount and attach a pick-up tailgate and frame

> from there back. He said the sides lined up really

> well. He lost 8" of length.

> How did you do it? Do you live in Northern Cal., I'd

> love to see what you've done.

> Regards,

> Phil Linker

Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 13:13:45 -0800 (PST)

From: phil linker <granite_luv@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Bobbed 1985 4RNR update

Hey Lance,

Great to hear you've got the rear section reattached.

Not many folks would have the guts to attempt a

project like this.

I thought that darn frame would interfere with the

opening and closing of the tailgate. Is that why you

tried cutting diagonally down the frame? I would have

tried the same thing.

How did the side panels fit up?

Can't wait to see the pictures.

Best Regards,

Phil

> I finished bobbing and most of the welding of the

> 4-Runner this past

Ø weekend.

Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:45:39 -0600

From: "Lance Morin" <lance.morin@netzero.com>

Subject: Re: Bobbed 1985 4RNR update

The frame did interfere with the tailgate and this is the ONLY reason I cut

the frame and an angle AFTER I had already cut it straight. That darn

4-Runner tailgate is so bulky, but I need it to keep my hardtop. It'll be

nice when I have the top cut to match and it looks "stock" again.

The sides fit up pretty good on the outside and top, but there is some work

to be done on the bottom. Back by the lights, you have that hole on the

bottom inside panel and that curve created a bit of misalignment. However,

I'll patch it once I run my wires back to the tailgate. I did used backing

strips from the 12" I cut out to aid in the welding. A buddy welded it up

for me and I need to buy some thinner wire to some more filling on the

bottom. Even with the minor tailgate problems, I'm very happy with the

outcome. The cutting part was very easy (cutoff wheel on my circular saw,

and cuttoff wheel on my 4" grinder) and the welding was even easier (since I

didn't do it). It only took an hour or so to put it back together and

another hour or so to mess with the tailgate and fab those body mounts.

I'm now looking into ways to keep my back seat and store a spare 33x12.50

Swamper TSL. I may build a swing away tire carrier off the rear bumper, but

who knows. I may also just incorporate a storage rack on the top of my

external roll cage and put a mount for the tire up there. In the meantime,

the tire may just lay in the back strapped down on top of a flat toolbox

which will use most of that storage area.

The pictures will be located at www.fwd-fwd.org/lance/bob.html later

tonight.

Lance Morin

lance@fwd-fwd.org

- ----- Original Message -----

From: phil linker <granite_luv@yahoo.com>

To: <toy4x4@moab.off-road.com>

Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 3:13 PM

Subject: Re: Bobbed 1985 4RNR update

Welding

Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:17:47 -0800
From: "Gary A. Pedro" <gary.pedro@championsms.com>
Subject: frame repair

I have welded several tractor (big rigs) frame cracks the best way i have
found is to v the crack out stick weld it with E6013 grind it flat and
place
a 1/2 inch thick plate cut to the full hight of the frame rail square and
weld all four sides first with a root pass of E6013 then with a weld out of
E7018 i have never had one break. i would think this method would work well
on pickups to.

Welding

Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 00:51:49 -0800

From: Thom Singer <ntsqd@shocking.com>

Subject: Re: Welder Questions (off topic)

Shear across one of your welds of 2 pieces butted together with no

'V'ing out and then shear across a similarly prepped TIG weld or a stick

arc weld and compare them. You will see what I mean. I didn't say MIG is

like brazing, I said it is comparable to brazing in that the filler

bonds the 2 parent metals. This should be obvious just from the shear

volume of weld filler metal deposited. I also said if the joint is

designed properly that this can be taken care of. The weld bead cross

section of a MIG is roughly a flat sided, pointy oval laying on it's

side. The TIG weld is more rounded end oval standing on end and the

stick weld tends to be (mine anyway, I'm not real good with one) vaguely

'V' shaped.

If you're blowing holes in the metal you're way, way too hot and risking

Martensitic structure.

Darren Floen wrote:

> Thom,i don't know what kind of MIG welding you have seen,but MIG welding

> is nothing like brazing.Brazing is glueing two parts together.Mig does

> actually melt all three parts together.My 170 amp Lincoln is quite

> capable of blowing hole right through 1/8" plate....

> I welded everything on my Toy,and the frame for my Lil Red with my

> MIG,and none of my welds have broken........

> I do use stick for anythng 3/8" and thicker.

> Thom Singer wrote:

> >

> > I think that is set-up dependant. The J.C. I used go to had a new

> > building built and all the A-36 structure was flux core MIG'ed together.

> > Granted, flux core is close to being a very, very long electrode for

> > stick arc.

> > Shield gas MIG is very shallow penetrating weld deposit. It is more like

> > brazing than stick arc in that the weld metal deposited bonds to each of

> > the parent metals and bridges the gap rather than melting all three

> > metals into a homogeneous puddle like a well done stick weld does. As

> > long as the joints are designed with this in mind and it is taken

> > advantage of, it needn't be considered a weak welding method.

> >

> > --

> > TS

> > Chico, CA

> >

> > Ours go to eleven.

> --

> Darren Floen

> Thunderbay,Ontario

> 85 Toyota 4x4 Xtracab 4.3 TBI TH350

> 6" Custom lift,RS 9012's,Detroit+True Track

> 5.29's,Crossover steering,35" Boggers,glass bed

> "Lotsa dents and scratches"

> 79 Dodge 'Lil Red Express Truck

> Pro Street/Strip,500" Big Block

> back halved,ladders n' coilovers

> 33x19.5 MT's.....Not done yet

> "Ex Street Stormer,Boulevard Bully"

- --

Chico, CA

Ours go to eleven.

Trailer Books

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 12:18:39 -0700

From: "Thom Singer" <ntsqd@mail.csuchico.edu>

Subject: Re: Trailer building, was: Trailer Queen

On the subject of building trailers, there is a good series of books

written by an M.M. Smith on the subject. Titles include:

TRAILERS: How to Tow and Maintain.

TRAILERS: How to Buy and Evaluate.

TRAILERS: Design & build Vol. 1; Basics

TRAILERS: Design & build Vol. 2; Structure (Ever wanted to know what the

critical speed of the truck-trailer combination is ? The formula's here.

If you find a value for the sidewall stiffness of the trailer tire would

you let me know ?)

TRAILERS: Design & build Vol. 3; Performance

Utility trailers catalog (I think this is a collection of design

prints.)

Try writing to:

Techni-Visions

7621 E. Firestone Blvd # E-11

Downey, CA USA 90241

Or calling 213.460.2550

Northern Hydrualics used to catalog vols 1 & 2.

- --

Chico, CA

The more you complain, the longer God makes you live.

Fasterners

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:24:43 -0700

From: Thom Singer <ntsqd@shocking.com>

Subject: Re: Replacement metric bolts, was: Bolt sizes...

For those of you in Nor. Cal. or close by, we have a

fastener store here in Chico that stocks an amazing variety

of metric fasteners. Once for a bike project I asked them

for a 6 x 1.0 Stainless Button head "Allen" bolt. The gal

behind the counter asked "How long ?" It's gotten so that I

no longer call to see if they have what I need, I just go

out there and get it. Yesterday I was in there getting some

bolts for my senior project and they were going thru their

stock of Aa-ve-co (sp?) interior and exterior trim clips and

fasteners, something I've only seen a catalog for once.

Their name is Valley Wide Fastener and they can be reached

at: 530.891.1023

- --

Chico, CA

Where are we going ? And why am I in this hand basket ?

Smithy Machines
: Smithy is currently having a sale on the Granite and MI-1720 lathe/mill machines. The 1720 swings 17 inches with 20 inches between centers, and its only $1595. It comes with 3 and 4 jaw chucks, and an indexable tool set. They are good machines for the money. Mine is four years old, and I have no complaints.
THAT is a fabulous price for an adequately sized machine to do most robotics work. At least 30% off. I'd buy the Granite, because of the R-8 spindle, and longer bed and give up a little on the maximum swing. Please note to the steady/follow rest costs an extra $190, but even so this is a deal. Smithy also has a deal on a small vert./horiz. band saw for $200.
Cheaper way to go if you ain't got the cash: go to Production Tool. They have a small combo lathe/mill for about $800. Not as roboust as a Smithy, but for the money a real buy. Has 3 and 4 jaw, and enough swing for most things on a robot. I don't remember the exact specs, but I remember it came with a steady rest, which can be used to turn things longer than it's bed.
1-888-396-TOOL, stores all over metro Detroit, main branch in Warren. I'm going to suggest a couple of websites to you too, but there is nothing like going and looking at something in person.
J&L (Livonia, many places in the midwest) has two interesting products - a 9'X20', full featured lathe with very good build quality and lots of accessories for $900 (stock #JBB-00005-E), and a couple of table top mills. One is for $1200, is 6'x13' travel, and looks like it's light enough to travel(MMD-91000-D). The other one is a two HP beefier heavy looking 7'x16' for $1300(MMD-91025-E). Both mills have an R-8 taper. http://www.jlkdirect.com/
Also www.grizzly.com (Missouri) and www.ipstool.com (Calif.) have neat, cheap stuff.
IPS especially has wonderful bargains in it's catalog, that are not on the website. Like a $40 belt driven drill press, small enough to take to the regional, and a $70 combo bench belt and disk sander (4x36' belts and 6' disks). We use one a lot. IPS also has a very similar machine to the combo mill/lathe I saw at Production tool, but bigger, for $700. It's a 220v machine. I think IPS is the bargain king.
Grizzly has what looks like the same machine in 120v for $800. Also they sell a $80 benchtop drill press, and a $110 combo sander. My impression is that Grizzly sells slightly better quality stuff, for more money.
What to get? I'd love to have things light and compact enough to take to the competitions. But the problem with combo pieces is: only one person or one project can use it at a time. If my team had to do a robot build exclusively with the stuff we were buying, I'd opt for a separate lathe and mill if we could, unless I had a lot of time burn (we don't). Throw in a cheap saw, drill press and sander, and 10 people could stay mostly busy all the time.
On the other hand, I dream about the team from New England I saw at the National last spring. They brought their whole machine shop with them (TWO combo machines plus half a dozen other tools), and feared nothing.. :o)
Sam